Jesus *did* say forgive to be forgiven. So works save?

What did Jesus mean when He said that if we forgive others, our heavenly Father will forgive us—but if we do not forgive others, neither will our Father forgive us?

In this episode of The Study Boys, Lex Lutheran and FLAME respond to the recent dialogue between Ethiopian Orthodox Deacon Mihret Melaku and Ruslan Karaoglanov (Ruslan KD) and wrestle with one of Jesus’ most challenging teachings.

Is Jesus teaching that our works contribute to our salvation? Is our forgiveness from God conditioned upon our ability to forgive others? Or is something else happening in these passages?

We explore these questions through the Law-Gospel distinction, asking what Jesus’ words reveal about God’s perfect, unmovable, and unbudgeable standard of righteousness—and what they reveal about us.

We also discuss the Christian as simultaneously sinner and saint, our ongoing need to confess our sins and pray for forgiveness, and why our true righteousness can never finally be located in our performance—even our performance of forgiveness—but only in Jesus Christ and His righteousness for us.

How do we take Jesus’ warning with full seriousness without turning the Gospel into a system of salvation by works?

Let’s study. 📖

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

What would you say about like when Christ says if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will forgive your trespass? Because he seems like he's causally relating the work of forgiving a person to them receiving divine forgiveness. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Yeah, I I think that's I think I would place that categorically in the same place I would place baptism, categorically in the same place I would place confession of sin. Categorically I place that in the same place as hey, you've got to be a part of a local church, that all of those things we should we we should do and we ought to do. To be to be forgiven? Because we're forgiven. Not to be forgiven.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

But that's not what because we're forgiven.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

But that's not what Christ says, though. He says, if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will forgive you your trespasses. And he even gives you the negative just in case you want. If you don't, yeah, if you don't, you won't forgive you.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

The study. The study. The study. Study, boys, we back. After a hiatus. We back. We finally back, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Had the technical difficulties, but we back. We back lit.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

That part, that part, that part. You gotta push through sometime, man. Even when you have technical difficulties. Nevertheless, nevertheless, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

This is random though. You know what I'm saying? Because over the years, I've seen a lot of ministries, right? A lot of groups of people doing things, you know, good, good gospel sharing type work or law, law sharing type work a lot of times. Um take donations and stuff, but you'll never um have any idea what it goes to. You know what I'm saying? I just want you want people to know that like the donations that we that we do get actually help with stuff we're doing. It's not as if it's just going to, you know what I'm saying, flame with a fresh new shirt on, looking crispy. You know what I mean? Nah, it's actually going to, we had technical difficulties. And by the grace of God and the, you know, the abundant heart of people, we're able to take care of it and get right back up and going again. So I just want people to know that things are being used for the purpose of things that we got going on in regards to us getting out there and doing more things and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

That's real. So thank you. Thank you to the donors. Uh, just showing love, being supportive. Our goal is to keep this going, to bring theology down to a practical level where the average person can tap in and learn and grow uh at ease and sort of on the go. So, yeah, thank y'all so much. Hit up extranoseacademy.com to see more about what we are building and what God is doing. So super lit about that, man. But, you know, in view of good works and uh doing good in the world, I think it's only right that we would continue that theme as we look at this next video clip, man. I think it's interesting as a lot of millennial Gen Zers, and yeah, just people who are interested in faith from all across the spectrum, or thinking about a version of Christianity that's more conservative, that's more focused on uh ancient practices and uh a liturgy, a flow of service that reflects something that's deeper in meaning and not something that's just so shallow and performative and lights camera action. They want things with meaning, with substance, and that's a beautiful thing. So, in view of that conversation, a lot of people are vetting for attention. And you have a lot of claims right now of different organizations saying that they are the true expression of Christianity. This is the one true church, and that's a big conversation right now. And I can see being tempting to want to go down that path. And hey, man, I want to be a part of the one true church. Let me see what this group has to say, let me see what that group has to say. And a lot of times when you go down those paths, unfortunately, you get a lot of cool tradition. You get a lot of um information about how these practices have been preserved, and it's it seems beautiful and artistic and the aesthetic. It's it draws you in, and it's it, man, it's interesting. It's different. It's different than just going to a concert-like gathering and people are leaning into that. But oftentimes, what's missing is the gospel, the central message, justification by faith alone, apart from words, the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls. Oh, that's all. Yeah. If you land somewhere where the aesthetic is fire, it's beautiful. Um, it's been around for hundreds or maybe even a thousand years. But the gospel's missing, I have to inform you, you are not in a safe place. You are not in a safe place. In OT, not. So with that being said, man, I think it's gonna be cool to just look at this video clip of two popular figures who are discussing this very, very topic, bro.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

You ready to get into that?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

I'm ready to get into it, man. And it's it's two brothers, you know what I'm saying? But it's just an aspect of sometimes you end up taking your eye off the ball and counting on other things to be what justifies you, to be what you find assurance in, the way you can know that I'm good, I'm in Christ. You you start looking at other things that I mean, who could trust the heart? The heart is deceitful among all things. Like, so we could jump in the clip, we could jump in the clip and chat about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, yeah. All right, without no further ado, let's get into that.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

And I would say in the Protestant worldview, the normative path is as well, by grace through faith, two works, right? That there that there should be works. It's just that those works aren't doing the saving, it's doing the revealing. That would be the where we would have a distinction.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

So, what would you say about like when Christ says if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will forgive your trespass? Because he seems like he's causally relating the work of forgiving a person to them receiving divine forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I want to say something off-rip. I want to say something from the get-go, from the tippy. Off-rip. Off-rip from the tippy. So it's interesting that um Ruse line says that the good works are for revealing. And I think that is important to slow down and to consider because in certainly the spaces that I've come from where they're more um reformed baptistic and leaning, um, that is a major theme where your good works demonstrate and prove that you are one of the elect, that your good works have as a primary goal showing, firstly, yourself that you are really a Christian, and then also showing other people that, yes, I am one of those true converted, um, genuine Christians. And while the Bible certainly talks about fruit in that way, that it does help you see um whether or not a person's claims are true or false, that's not the primary goal of good works. That's not the primary thing. And for Ruzlan, that seemed to be the thing. He's like, this is in contrast to what you're saying. Good works do the revealing, to which we would say, biblically, good works are primarily born out of justification by faith alone, so that neighbor is served, so that people are assisted along the way, brothers and sisters in the faith, non-Christians, even as you're being a light among them. But the the goal of our good works is not primarily where we find our assurance, our our uh ultimate comfort and acknowledgement that we are really in Christ Jesus. That's just not the way the Bible talks about it. So I think it's important to highlight that and not just skip over that as if, yeah, that's the assumed. He's right. Yeah, it's primarily for revealing. Even though he didn't use the word primarily, the way he articulated it and structured it, it demonstrates that's what he's saying. You feel me?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

No, I feel you. And um, Ruslan was uh trying to, oh sorry, people who don't know the who we're talking about. There's Ruslan, um, he's the um the pigmently challenged brother in the clip. Rusein was up against the wall, and he was trying to express what you're saying, but we have to go by what you're saying in a sense. And as you're saying, love neighbor as you love yourself. It's not really to prove your justification or to establish it as, look, I really am in the in crowd, in a sense. Because if we hold the law up in its proper distinction, you're never gonna reach that part where you're saying, Yes, I'm good. Yes, I'm that. Or our our faith doesn't cling on to how many genuine works do we think we did. Because are we genuinely loving our neighbor when we're doing it to appease a third party? If we're honest about it. And third party is God in the sense. I'm not trying to shun third person. And if you're doing some work because God said to do it, good, you should do it. But if we're going to judge it on the aspect of, is the Holy Spirit truly moving in me? Am I saved? There that's not the metric we use. The metric we use is your faith, trust, reliance on Christ, and that outflows into works, yes. But it's not the measuring stick in regards to that.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yeah, yeah. And and and I think it's interesting too because this conversation stems from the Reformation. So people who push back on an Oriental Orthodox, Coptic, Rome, and any other branch out like that would happily differentiate themselves from the Reformation, um, like if you are on the other side, your argument comes from the Lutheran Reformation. It's just a fact. So to use the language that we are justified by faith alone apart from works, to make the argument that works are born out of justification, that they don't contribute to your justification, I think it's right to be inspired by the origins of the Reformation, the conservative reformation. Amen. But I think you should continue to be inspired by it and put the focus where the apostles do, where scripture does, and what those early reformers do in terms of the purpose of our good works, which is to serve neighbor, to love God and love neighbor, as you mentioned, and not primarily to affirm for yourself and others that you are actually a Christian. So in that way, I think, you know, just a bit more integrity in terms of holding true to where this sentiment comes from, Paul and those early reformers, let's hold tight there as opposed to taking it somewhere else and making it something that it never was in its inception. I think that's important. But anyway, let's get back into this, man.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

So, what would you say about like when Christ says if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will forgive your trespass? Because he seems like he's causally relating the work of forgiving a person to them receiving divine forgiveness. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, I think that's I think I would place that categorically in the same place I would place baptism, categorically in the same place, I would place confession of sin, categorically I place that in the same place as hey, you gotta be a part of a local church, that all of those things we should we we should do and we ought to do. To be to be forgiven? To be because we're forgiven, not to be forgiven. But that's not what it is because we're forgiven.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

But that's not what Christ says though. He says, if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly father will forgive you your trespasses. And he even gives you the negative just in case he wants to.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

If you don't, yeah, if you don't, he won't forgive you. No, that's a that's a fair point. If if I had to try and and weasel my way out of this one, I would say, was that before uh the sacrifice of Jesus? Right? Was that before he made all things right on the other side of what we see happen in Acts?

SPEAKER_04 12:21

That's I think a very dangerous interpretation.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Oh man, yeah. Um I love how he held his feet to the fire. Uh Miret, I think his name is. Um the the deacon, you know. Uh I I had to I had to really dig in my bag, make sure I got it right, you know. That part. Miret.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Um you got it right, my brother. Yeah, I'm gonna forget though. If not, if not, if it's not.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

If not, our bad. Um I'm gonna call you Deacon dude, though, if I forget it later on, Miret. But um, I like how he held his feet to the fire saying that you can't do that that game that I admit a lot of Protestant uh groups do, you know, in a sense of, well, that depends on was this after the crucifixion? And he brings up some good points as we'll see, in regards to when we're looking at this, we have to be able to say, Amen to what Jesus says. And and and and l interpret it without trying to downplay or cast aside things that are proclaimed. So that's like a a a basic exegetical like tactic. Like you have to be able to do that.

unknown 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

You can't really play games like that. So I do like how he held that line, you know, and it's an interesting um thing that he brought up. And it's funny because Ruseline, I think in the clip, mentioned it where he was like, if I had to weasel my way out of this one, kind of admitting that from his training and theological prowess, this is a corner that he finds himself in. And for other traditions, I'll say like ours also, we have law gospel distinctions. So where we don't have to view this as a corner, we can view this on face value and take it as such.

unknown 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Yeah. Now that's important too, man. Um everything you said, amen. And it's it's interesting too because part of the thing we should do when we approach the Bible is to look for the plain meaning, what's being said, um, as opposed to trying to bend it or twist it. Um it ain't and you know, obviously some texts are more difficult than others. We're not saying every text is equally um easy to understand or as difficult as another one, but ultimately we are looking for the plain meaning. And one of the hermeneutical principles is that scripture interprets scripture. So so sometimes when things are unclear, you go um elsewhere to see other things being said about this topic that bring clarity to something that's um unclear. So the Bible interprets the Bible because there is no contradiction in the Bible. Amen. Um, it's it's not at war with itself. So this is an interesting part of the the episode because Mirat is rightly saying, wait, Jesus said this. Now you should be able to say amen, but to further understand what he means, one, we know it can't contradict something else he said. So if your explanation contradicts something else Jesus says about being saved by grace, by being forgiven of your sins based upon uh trusting him and not based upon your contribution, then you say, Well, he can't mean that we contribute to our own salvation. So, so we have to continue to do more work to see what he actually means. So it seems like uh Mirat is willing to not do that, and he's just, I'm just gonna take this and interpret it to mean I contribute to my salvation. It's like, wait, that's the wrong move, too. Though you have Ruslan cornered on camera, and it may be like a cool aha moment for you, but you've put yourself in a in a bad position, just like Ruslan has when he's like, ooh, okay, well, and then he reaches elsewhere to pull in something else uh to sort of clean that up. Mirat, you're in a difficult spot too. So this is also just a good lesson in how to work through your Bible and to interpret scripture in view of scripture and knowing that it does not contradict. So let's continue to dig. Let's let's see what's being said uniquely, because this is spinning off of the Beatitudes, this is off of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, where he's been in the exercise of raising the stakes to really bring the point home that we are not righteous. Even when he says, if your righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees, you won't enter the kingdom. Even in that, he's making an indictment against the Pharisees, pretty much saying they're not entering the kingdom either. So, because they're not perfect. So Jesus is constantly saying at the top of his sermon, the middle of his sermon, bottom of his sermon, he's raising the stakes. You have heard it said this, but I say, Yeah, if you even fill in the blank, then you've already sinned. If you've already felt this, then you've already seen, right? So that's something that you got to keep in mind. It's Jesus' point is to show, nah, there is no righteousness in you. Not the kind of righteousness that it would take to actually please God, which is the righteousness that he himself carries, right? When Jesus talks about turning the other cheek, if somebody hits you, some people say, well, he don't mean literally. Nah, he mean literally. But you you can't fathom that. But that's the kind of righteousness he's talking about. So Jesus is not lowering the standard, he's raising it. So we shouldn't lower it, but we also shouldn't think that we can actually pull this off. So Mirat and those who are in that through line also have a problem as well if they are thinking I can actually contribute this level of forgiveness. I can actually forgive perfectly like Jesus. Is that what Jesus is saying? That you got the ability to forgive perfectly? I think this is a prayer for help to forgive, not an admittance that you got it within you to forgive perfectly like the triune God. Really? You think you can pull that off? That's pretty arrogant.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah, and I I reached out to a couple pastors uh just to get their thoughts on this uh this clip. And uh so I reached out to uh Pastor Bob Hiller. Um he's out there in Escondido. Um y'all out there, faithful church. But wait, what a good point that he brought up in my discussion with him, and I jotted down, was is but in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is talking to disciples who were already saved, not laying out means of justification or a way to earn forgiveness of sins. This part you just touched on, though, that I wanted to that made me think of it. His aim is at the Pharisees who hold forgiveness and boasts in righteousness, not the guy who struggles to forgive. Also, Jesus is talking the language of law here. He does mean it. But we don't place our faith in how forgiving we are. And I I love how he summing that up right there, where we have to look at the context. He is addressing, like you mentioned, this pharisaic element to where people think they're righteous by doing certain things. And yes, in between we have a lot of things going on, but the overall context of him standing there talking to the people was built upon that type of context. So you have to look at things in the whole didactic view of the context. And I I love how he broke that down, and his aim isn't to teach you if you forgive, you are saved. His aim wasn't that at all. When you look at the whole body of Matthew 5 through 6, if people don't know what the section we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, thank you for saying that, bro. Um, because in the same in the same space, Matthew 6, 12, um, it says, and forgive us our debts as we also have forg uh forgiven our debtors. So, so yeah, we're we're praying for help. We're praying that God would help us to forgive. Um, Jesus is informing us how we should forgive. So this is where this the law gospel hermeneutic or way of interpreting the Bible is helpful. And we'll continue to listen to the clip and we'll talk more about it. But it's helpful for us to realize whenever Jesus gives us his law, he doesn't weaken it. He doesn't, he doesn't shrink it down and make it like okay for us to do. Like, uh, I'll just kind of relax it a little bit so maybe y'all can achieve it either for the first time to become a Christian or as a Christian so that you can maintain it. It's like, no, his standard is always the standard, and we should always preach the law as heavy as Jesus does, so to speak. We in his full force. We don't relax it because. I'm a Christian now, me and God, cool. It's like, nah, the law is still the law, and it still does its work of showing us our fallenness. It still crushes us. And in that activity of God's word, being active, actively confronting us, we still realize that we need a savior. We need forgiveness for not upholding this law. So if the word tells us, forgive like this, or you won't be forgiven, we say, woo, my goodness. I want to go after that, Lord. I really do, by your grace, but I can't. I'm still harboring bitterness. I'm still upset with what they did to me. Help me. We don't say, say less, God, I got this. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not the intent. So in this prayer, Jesus is instructing and he's also teaching us humility to pray to the very God who can help us and give us power to forgive. So again, so if you land on the base that says, we can do this as if that's what Jesus was communicating, you're making Jesus contradict himself everywhere else he spoke, except in this spot. And that's not the way you do Bible study, Bible exposition. That's just not it. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Or the basis is if I don't do it, I won't be forgiven. Now, does Christ say that? Yes, he does. That is law heavy, and we don't down, we don't sugarcoat it. Christ means every single word he says, yes. You know, that is the standard. If that was the end all be all standard in regards to that's all Christ said about the matter, nobody saved. Nobody. Nobody, nobody. If you don't forgive, he won't forgive you. You're out, bro. You're out. Like the I I I there's no other way to word it. There's no other way to look at it. You know? But there is something called something that we call the second use. When you get to that part where you're like, yeah, I can't forgive like that. I won't be forgiven. It should drive you back to the cross. It should drive you back to but God, but Christ. Like, I don't love my neighbor as I love myself. If we hold the same didactic view of this passage to that, bam. I don't I don't I don't do all things to the glory of God. I mean, I'm trying to podcast to the glory of God. Not gonna lie. That's just the real, that's just the rule of it. If we're being honest with ourselves, to have this type of view, you almost have to lessen the law to well, he says, if you don't forgive, he won't forgive you. But I'm trying, and he sees my effort. Yeah. He also sees your lack of effort. Yeah, he also sees that. Let's not let's not fudge the line just on one side. He also sees this when you're not even trying. So this as Pastor Hiller said, this isn't about how to get saved. This isn't about justification in that regard. This is about the posture of a Christian and people who are prideful in regards to boasting in their righteousness, but are unforgiving, unloving to other people.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah. And and and and it's interesting that he chose to pick this particular spot as if it's uniquely more weighty than his law everywhere else. I I don't know why he would think this is like hook line sinker. Like, oh yeah, I got him right here. He did get him, though.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

I got it.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

No, in this sense, in this sense, not in terms of his exchange with Bruce Line. Yeah. But but just in terms of in his mind, he thinks this command is different in measure than the rest of them. The rest of them are just as impossible. Bro, be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. The chapter before.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

The chapter before. Like the right, like literally sentences before. Like if you go through just Matthew 5 and hold the same standard.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Bro, we can run, we can run through this month forever. I mean, this you talk about if you go to the Beatitudes, blessed is the poor in spirit, blessed. Jesus is he's describing himself. None of us are those things. Jesus is the only one who actually is capable of being the description of the things he mentioned on the Sermon on the Mount. If every turn the other cheek, if you if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've already committed adultery. If you have hatred in your heart against your brother, you've you're a murderer. Like every one of these mugs is just as difficult as if you don't forgive, then you won't be forgiven. So this isn't like, gotcha. This is just as impossible as every other command. These are commands, by the way. These aren't suggestions. This isn't to say, well, now that you're saved, the Christian life is you trying your best to increase and measure in these areas. And as you get from 10% as a new convert to 20% as a maturing, budding, growing Christian, and then by the end of your life, you've gotten to 90% through discipline and practice. No, this isn't saying the Christian life is where you now harp and exercise to get better and better at fulfilling the law so that you can lay claim on some contribution to your justification. No, that is not Christianity. Um, and so all over Jesus' sermon that leads up to this prayer, that's his point. That is his point. And the disciples are being rocked by this. They just like because you got to think, Jesus not too long ago, just called these dudes to be the disciples. Hey, follow me, right? He speaks this, he speaks this word and calls them to himself. They like, all right, let's go. You feel me? Like, they don't know him like that. They don't know all his teachings. You know what I'm saying? They're following him and they're learning from him, and he's constantly teaching them about his way, the law. And it's still doing its work on them. And they're realizing more and more who he is, their need for him. So that's what's going on here. And in this prayer, he's teaching them how to pray, not teaching them how to earn or contribute to their salvation. So this is why, again, I think it's dangerous for um good for the good buddy um to articulate a version of Christianity.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. What's his name? What's his name, man? What's his name? Mir Mirat. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I get brother Mirat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I make sure. I still got you, brother. I still got you. I got you. I get brother Mirat, which I hope we're saying that right. I'm confident as a mug that I'm saying it right. We could be completely wrong. But but no, it's uh my heart, my heartaches not only for him, but anyone who's landed where he's landed, that this text and any other law text means now spend the duration of your Christian life trying your best to fulfill these things in hopes to contribute to your salvation. And uh that is that is uh an unfortunate resolve, and no apostle speaks friendly about that resolve. In fact, they say very serious warnings against trying to actually pull that off, thinking you're contributing to your salvation. Don't even let me get into Galatians, where Paul talks about, oh, you want to live by the law again? Well, then you gotta live by the whole law. Right, right. He says, hey, if that's what you own, then my brother, you are severed from Christ. You have severed yourself from Christ, he says. So that's why I'm like, Lord, please help our our family members who are stumbling in this area because we got a lot of life to live, and um, these things do weigh heavy on the soul, and Satan uses these things to strip faith. So let us not be cocky to think Jesus is telling us you can do it with my coaching. Nah, that's not that's not the message. That's not the Christian message at all.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Right. And don't think I don't want people to think that we're this is a reach. There's other parts in this interview, because I, you know, we we try to watch the majority of when we can find it, where he literally lays it out in regards to the aspect of we want this to go too long tonight, but he clearly states, like, nah, grace is Christ coming down, dying for us. Amen. Yeah. And then you have to work out your salvation, and that is a partnership deal where you contribute. Like he literally clearly explains that. So what we're saying isn't a far-fetched uh explanation of what he believes or confessing. That's what he's hinting at here. To where if you don't forgive, your salvation's on the line. Now, someone can say, but that's what Jesus says. We're not we're not contesting that. Jesus is not playing around when it comes to that at all. At all. Another pastor that I asked this question to, and this this right here is uh Pastor Clem. Um I know him kind of well, you know, and he says, Um, these guys are making it about how strong your commitment is. You know, but that's not what it's about. And it he also notes that when we hear Jesus' word, we can say amen to him. He says, at the same time, we do take Jesus seriously in the forgiving as we have been forgiven. But then he brings up a good passage where he says, I like Mark 9 better, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. That's where we're at. That's where you should be at when you're talking about salvation and justification. I believe, help my unbelief. You know, or or my favorite passage where in Luke, where he's just like, forgive me, a sinner, knowing that you fall, knowing that, like, I bro, like I'm trying, I aim for these, but I know I I I don't reach the mark. I don't but God, like I'm I I'm always turning back to him, not to did I forgive enough. The answer to that's no. But I I got a guy. I got a guy and I'm banking it all on him, knowing that I fall short by every metric. I can't go around saying, hey, I'm not gay, I'm in. He's still he still got greed, you still lust, you still covet. You still gossip in the back row. So let's not you have to it has to be your trust and faith in Christ. Is what we're banking on when we start talking about the justification aspect of it, which he's hinting at in this uh clip we're seeing.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah. And and yeah, be even before we get to this next clip, I I think it's important to add too that we are both sinners and saints at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Simple.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And so for someone to take the Christian life to mean we can progressively push out of being sinners, we can increase in degree um and be less less sinners, that's just not the confession of the Bible. And I love how John says it in 1 John. 1 John, at the top of 1 John, he starts off by saying, um, he um, if you say you have no sin, then then you're a liar. You make God a liar, right? But then he goes on, and by the time you get in 1 John 5, he starts talking about how Christians don't sin anymore. It's like, wait, what's going on here? Okay, here it is. So 1 John 5, verse 18, it says, We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. Now, obviously, could say make a life a lifestyle or a practice of sin, but is that perfectly true? Like, John is he's confessing both things. So, yes, the answer is perfectly true that we do sin and that we don't keep on sinning. What's going on here? Which one is it, John? The answer is yes. We're both sinners and saints at the same time. Paul talks this way in Romans 7 that we're sinners and saints. We we the stuff we want to do, we can't do it. We just keep dropping the ball. But then we have this new law working within us that gives us power to resist sin. So there's that, there's that thing going on. So for that reason, it continues to humble us as we are confronted by God's law. Every time we pray the Lord's Prayer and we hear that instruction to forgive, or we won't be forgiven, we should feel the weight of that every single time we pray it. We don't say, uh, I'm a Christian now. That don't mean as much for me. No, we feel that weight. And then we continue to say, Lord, help my unbelief.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

Amen. Right?

SPEAKER_00 35:52

That's that center-saint dynamic. That's that law gospel dynamic. And when that's missing in the room, you leave confused, like both of these positions being represented in this discussion. So let's get back into it, man.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Was that before uh the sacrifice of Jesus? Right? Was that before he made all things right on the other side of what we see happen in Acts?

SPEAKER_04 36:14

That's I think a very dangerous interpretation because in that case, you basically have to throw out potentially anything that Christ said before the cross because it's possibly not applicable after.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

And there is a I'm not trying to I'm not trying to, I'm saying I'm saying the means of justification in that sense. Like what were the were the people pre-Jesus's death and rising on the cross under a different mode of justification in the same way that the Israelites were?

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Uh I would say perhaps, but but my question here though, is then why would Matthew include that in the discourses of Christ? Because he wrote it after the resurrection. So why is he writing it to the church? We're supposed to learn from Christ and what he's teaching us. It's not like, oh, it was before he was crucified, so I can disregard it. Sure, sure, sure. And I think it's very dangerous to go that down that route because uh it leads to things like uh another person who was on the Avengers podcast who was famous, you know, Johnny Chang was famous for saying, Don't pray the Lord's prayer because he gave it before the crucifixion. Like there you get that's a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I think for the record, I disagree with Johnny Chang on quite a few things.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

But it but you see, we have to be consistent though, because his logic is pretty similar to yours. He said it before the crucifixion, and I think he was being pretty logically consistent because I think Johnny was looking at uh the commentary on the Lord's prayer Christ gives, because that verse, if you forgive men their sins, your heavenly father forgive your sins is a commentary directly on the Lord's prayer. So the next verses in Matthew 6. He's commenting on that part where Christ says, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass us.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I think I think we should uh forgive people uh if they sin against us. To be forgiven. And and and I and I think that when you forgive someone, it is the evidence that you yourself are born again. That's how I would frame it.

SPEAKER_05 37:51

But Christ would say that.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

When when when looking at it in the context of scripture interpreting scripture, like all of the New Testament in the context of that.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

I do believe holistically we should uh approach everything, but we also need to be intellectually honest and just evaluate that sentence for what it is. He says, if you forgive, like let's say if I say if I say, if you say hi to me, I'll wave back. That means that I will only wave back if you wave if you say hi to me. And in the negative, if you don't say hi to me, I will not wave back.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

You know, another thing that's interesting listening to him is I think there's there's there's the assumption that just because you forgave someone, that you have forgiven them the way God has. I I hear that presupposition in his um in his rhetoric as if his quality of forgiveness or the Christian has the the potential to forgive the way God does. And if you're gonna claim that, you have to think about the quality of God's forgiveness. And honestly, anybody I've ever forgiven, I cannot say that I've forgiven them the way they deserve to be forgiven. I cannot say that I've perfectly never harbored any bitterness toward them or right? I mean, we anybody can claim that, yeah, I forgave people and and praise God. That's one of Jesus' things, is that we should forgive. We should. So, amen. When the Holy Spirit works that type of good work in us. But to think your forgiveness is exactly like the Jesus, Jesus' command, the quality of Jesus' command, is very presumptuous, bro. You're very you're assuming a lot. Bro.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

You feel me? Bro, forgive them, they know not what they do. Come on. Like, I just Christ just got beat with lashes, a crown of thorns. He's carrying a cross. Forgive them, they know not what they do. I don't know about you, Flam. You're a very holy man. You know what I'm saying? I I've never had that level of forgiveness. Man, I was in the store today, and I thought a dude was trying to cut the line. Like literally, the line at the gas station was wrapping around to the right. It was me and this bald-headed lady, right? And I don't mean like that, like negative, but like her fade was crispy. So I'm not trying to bash her, but it was a ball-headed lady. And this dude popped in out too, just standing there, bro. Bam, no, no, no, we're not having that. We're not having that, bro. Bro, I want 10 on number three. I I'm just trying to get home. I'm just trying to get home. No, you know, I wasn't as gracious as I should be. I wasn't, you know what I'm saying? I'm still bitter about dude trying to pull that fast move. You know? Yeah. Bro, I can't imagine going through what Christ went through and saying, forgive them, they know not what they do. And then me sit here and act like my forgiveness is up to that standard. As if my works are on that level, par with that. Now, do I wish it was? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not though. Like, we gotta be honest here. We gotta be honest. Like, we can't, and a lot of times synergists, and I hate using that because I'm a I'm a I'm a former, a former Methodist, you know, former meth head. Um, I I usually be synergist. I don't want to make something just bashing them, you know. But a lot of times that's the game they play. They will do those those type of prog progression type games to minimize the law in a sense to where, oh, I'm forgiving because Christ forgave. Amen. Let's not act like it's correlated. Let's not act like it is par. Let's not act like when when when God with Abraham made Abraham go to sleep and took everything on himself. That's what we're talking about here. We're talking about God doing the work in salvation. We're talking about God fulfilling it. And does that mean that we don't strive? No. I hate that we have to keep doing disclaimers, but you know how it is out here on these streets.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Yeah. Maybe looking for.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

But the truth is you fail. I don't care how hard you try. You should try, yes, you should try, and you you're gonna fail. And you still try. But nah, um that that's a level of Christ, that be ye perfect as your heavenly father, yeah, bro, that's the standard.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

That's the standard. And bro, I've seen some wild displays of forgiveness. I remember one time I was watching this documentary, bro, and it was um, it was this older woman, and she had a daughter, and her daughter had a best friend. They grew up together. Events transpired where the best friend ended up taking the life of the daughter. The mom is crushed because she watched both of them grow up together as best friends, like from childhood to adulthood, and whatever happened so embittered her that she took her best friend's life. The mom was right, devastated. She cried. She got to a point where she actually wanted to go visit the young lady in prison. She did that. She cried, she wept, and then she said, You know what? Because I've been forgiven by Christ, to who, right? Jesus said, go, go forgive much. You who go forgive. She said, I want to honor that. And she and she held that young lady that took her daughter's life. And they cried together, bro. And then after that, she continued to go back and visit this young lady and to sort of become a mother figure to her. Think of that, bro. Think of the display of that. Even that powerful display of forgiveness and empowerment by the Holy Spirit does not match the quality of Jesus' sacrifice for every sinner without exception.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Bro, facts.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

For every generation, From the beginning of time to the end of time. Jesus got on that cross and he says, for every sinner, bro, that includes everybody that's ever been born. That he says that it is finished. Right? Christ came to reconcile the world to himself. And it's through us he's making that appeal. And that is the quality of forgiveness that we cannot fathom or tap into, and definitely cannot accomplish. So just we we gotta be cautious when we talk about the Christian life as if these commands are achievable just with a little help from God, we can do it. Then you cheapen the infinitely valuable work of an infinite, uh infinitely holy, powerful, and perfect triune God. Be careful. Be careful, man. For real, for real.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Yeah, it makes you think about um two things that we just saw in that clip. Uh Deacon dude, he lessens the law, that he lessens the context, saying that this verse we're looking at is only going back to the Lord's Prayer, forgive our debtors. Not realizing, no, this like the Bible wasn't written with chapters. I think people would have to realize that or remember that. Like, so sometimes you have to go back a chapter to get a full context. Sometimes you might have to go back two chapters to get a full landscape view of what's going on and what's being communicated. That's one thing. The second thing was is uh Ruslan asked a question, and um Deacon guy said, uh perhaps, right? Where he was like, are people saved in a different manner post the New Testament, post Christ going to the cross? Like the Israelites, saying that there's a different manner of salvation. Bro, the answer to that question is no. The answer is no. The gospel has been the same ever since the first gospel promise in Genesis, the seed that will come and crush the serpent's head. Amen. The Old Testament saints and New Testament saints are all saved by Christ alone. Only difference is one was looking forward to the Messiah coming and one's looking back at the completed works. That's the only difference. So I did want, I know that's not the topic of tonight, but that's always the topic when we're talking about Christ. You know, so we talk about Christ, baby, that's all we're gonna focus on. So when he said that, that I did want to highlight that of are they were were they saved differently? You know, like the Old Testament Jews, uh, bro, it's always been faith in Christ and the one to come. It's always been the one that's looking forward to the Messiah. Let's not we're not gonna we're not gonna um let that type of error slip because then you end up with two different paths of salvation, two different things, as if that wasn't the plan from the beginning. I mean, within the first three chapters of Genesis, we get the gospel. We get the gospel.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

I'm so glad you said that, bro. Man, I got bro, I got chilled, bro. That's real. It's always Jesus is the focus from top to bottom. What Jesus said, he says, you study the law, you study the scriptures looking for life, but it is them that testify of me, bro. It's always been about him, King. So nah, that's beautiful, bro. Ain't no, mm-mm, ain't no multiple paths. It's Jesus, the Father. Man, this been a plan from the beginning. No plan B. This thing stuff ain't catch God off guard. Now they scrambling around heaven, like, oh, how we gonna salvage? No. From the get-go, it's been Jesus. Yeah. Beautiful, bro. Man, all right, let's let's let them land a plane, bro.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

So is anyone that that heard that statement would be like, oh, okay. Ruslan has to wave, has to hide him in order for me to wave back.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, and and and and I would just simplify that and say, if you're a decent born-again Christian, you should be waving back at people and you should be waving at people.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

Yeah, but that's not what Christ says. Christ says, if you forgive, he gives you conditional, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:14

So what I'm saying is, um, I'm I'm trying to give you a different example. If if if you come into my house and you sit down in my studio uh and I offer you a drink of water, yeah, and you uh uh don't extend that same charity, right? Like, are am I worthy to then go into your house, right? Like, like you see, do you see they have the example spelling? I butchered that. So can I ask a simple question? Sure, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 48:38

Do you believe that if I don't forgive men their trespasses, that God won't forgive me?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

I believe that if you're truly born again, you should be forgiving people the way that Christ has forgiven you.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

I don't think that really answers the question. I just think I think the question's pretty simple because I'm just rephrasing what Christ said.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

So, so so the the i i the the chicken or the egg, right? That's the question. So I'm saying when someone is born again, when someone has placed their faith in Jesus, per uh John 3.16, yeah, right? Um when someone's placed their faith in Jesus, then the evidence of that should be that they're forgiving people. If they're not forgiving, if they're not forgiving people, I would say I don't know if they're actually placed their faith in Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

I get I get that.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

So to answer to answer your question, yes, you should be forgiving people.

SPEAKER_04 49:18

No, that's not, but I wasn't asking whether you should. Okay. My question is if a person doesn't forgive men their trespasses, will they be forgiven by God?

SPEAKER_01 49:27

I would say according to scripture, no. They won't be forgiven. They won't be forgiven. And I say in the same way, if someone but again, then we get into normative versus not normative.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

But is that isn't isn't that a work though? To forgive other people to forgive people? Is it a work? The act of forgiving? Act of forgiving is a work? I'll let the viewers decide that. That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

And there we go, ladies and gentlemen. I I think that's interesting. Uh, is there a category for if a person never forgives, ever, just ever, ever, like they never forgive. Should we be concerned? Should we, you know, encourage and admonish that person? Yeah, 100%. Um, but the the Christian will bear fruit. I think the assumption that you could be a Christian and not forgive is wild. If if you are born of God, 1 John 5 says you won't continue to make a practice of sin. You won't keep sinning. So I think that's a misunderstanding of what it means to be born of God. If you're born of God, you have his Holy Spirit. If you've been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you have been given his Holy Spirit. His Holy Spirit is going to produce good works in you. If you're attached to the vine and you're one of the branches, life and sustenance is flowing from Jesus to you. So you're going to forgive. So the way he sort of posed that is if to say you could be a Christian and not forgive. But I do think that we should admonish people who are making the practice of sin for sure. But yet and still to act like that's a simple thing. Oh, you're not forgiving, you're not a Christian. It's kind of where they both landed. I think there was Ruslan's sort of resolve in that place as well. Well, I'm just gonna say they may not be a Christian. And I think that's where Buddy wanted to lead him. And even in that, we should be slow. We should be slow to just kick people out if we don't see a degree of fruit bearing that we determine from our own limited scope, this person must not be forgiving. Uh do you have the vision, the insight, the helicopter view to look down into somebody's soul? And then even the type of lens that could see perfectly clear in their soul, and that's that's presuming a lot. So, yeah, that that's not to me as helpful as they may think it is. So I just want to add that. Yes, it's a category for people to be fake Christians. Yes, there's a category for people to name the name Jesus and actually be using it to get money or to get fame or whatever, fill in the blank. Yes, those people are out there, but let's just not haphazardly snatch away assurance and faith because we don't see something that we think uh looks like as ripe and sweet a fruit that we think God is looking at, you know?

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Nah, 100%. Like, it's just crazy to me, man. Like the land of plain there, you know, like I hate using far-fetched examples, you know, but like for me personally, this isn't a far-fetched example, so that's why I'm I'm okay using it. It's real hurt in the world. It's real hurt in the world, and what where's the room for the Holy Spirit over time working and softening someone's heart to that forgiveness? Like there's actually pain out here and to have these definite aspects where it's not someone who's unforgiving in general. Like they're talking about like this guy did this sin, did he forgive him in a sense? As someone who has lost people to actual murder and watch people get off with it and then to say family members and and then to say, Do you forgive him? Bro, years went by without the answer is no, bro. I wish him the worst. Years went by. So by their standard, I wasn't a Christian. God wouldn't have forgave me, even though my faith was in him. And Monday morning quarterbacking, looking back, I could say that the Holy Spirit was working on me and softening my heart over many moons. But to say, oh, I don't know if I'm a Christian going through those trials and tribulations of that happening, this real life pain, this real life hurt out there, you you can't talk in these definite they can't talk in these definite ways as if it's not real life going on out here. Um God's there in the midst of that too. Yes, there's people who are unforgiving. Yes, it's a category. But when you talk in when they talk in these definite ways, knowing that millions of people are watching, there's people in Africa that have internet that might have had bok haram or one of those uh Islamic gangs come through and wipe out a Christian town. You just don't look at him and say, yo, so you forgive them, right? You don't turn the other cheek, right? If not, you're not a Christian. Bam, like l sometimes you gotta be in the pain in the midst with somebody and able to sit there and and give them a shoulder to cry on and realize that, yo, I know right now it's tough, you know, and point them back to Christ. And let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does, and that's get active. And that softness will come eventually. But to act as if one can just determine what the wheat is from the tares ain't how this plays out. And really it's stepping way above people's pay grade to be able to sit here and act as if they could look at a saint that's in the church and say they're unforgiving for this to happen. They haven't forgived Johnny who slept with his wife yet. So he's still holding resentment and bitterness to both of them. Okay, so he's not a Christian. We're gonna that that's what we're gonna draw. I know these might seem like far-fetched examples, you know, but these are real life things that happen in people where there's real life hurt out here, and rather than basing their assurance or the the faith and comfort of the conscience you can give them on Christ, we're gonna look at did you forgive thy Christ? To that same measure, that same standard. I just think it's real problematic, and we have to realize when when the law gospel dynamic, and realize when it's when it's time for law, when it's time for gospel, when someone is failing at the law, you don't celebrate it, you do push them back to holiness, but then to bank salvation all on that, you wonder what you're really aiming at.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Beautiful, bro. And that's the beautiful thing about scripture and the conversation we're having here is because we know from scripture, especially think about Paul who says that in Christ, he said, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. So at any point of the day, of the night, of the week, month, year, lifespan, whatever, I can know that I am in Christ Jesus, that I'm forgiven. At any point of the day, any any stage, I can know that I am in Christ Jesus, that it's no longer I who lives, but it's Christ who lives in me. Is God is continuing to feed me with his word, uh, with his visible word, the Lord's Supper, um, where I'm constantly being forgiven. This is this is how God sustains us, is through means. So we go out, we go throughout the Christian life with the privilege and the joy to always know that we are right with God, because through his means, he continues to deliver that forgiveness. That one-time justification over and over and over until we perish, or Jesus returns. And that's the comfort and the assurance that we celebrate. I I pray that the entire body of Christ will celebrate that comfort with us because it's it is not a virtue to remain in spaces where lack of assurance is a virtue. Many traditions, um the one that our good buddy represents, as well as others, sort of pride themselves on not having the assurance of salvation. They feel like it's uh a point of rest, that we do have those angst and that struggle so that we can continue to strive. And we would say that's not how the Bible ultimately, yes, um, we do work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but guess what Paul said right after that? For it is God who works in us both the desire and the will to do.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

Yeah, they forget that part, bro. They bank it on the self-effort, they bank it on navel gazing. Like you say, I'm just standing. I could do it, I could do it. Nah, bro, keep reading.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

It's the very next one of you.

unknown 58:26

Facts, bro.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Facts. So we can, as we bring it to a close, we commend everybody that uh if you're hearing this, man, get you a good local church where they're where you're you're being you're being taught rightly. You're hearing the purity of the gospel. Um, the word of God and sacraments are there. The sacraments are administered according to the gospel, not according to works. Um get you a good circle of Christian friends and brothers and sisters that can rally behind you because faith comes by hearing, and you have to hear it this way so that God gives you that peace. If you hear it that other way, the gospel might pop in on occasion. It's like a cameo when the gospel is a feature. You know, uh that's not it. So that's our prayer. But anyway, glad y'all are, you know what I mean, continuing to stick around, continuing to support exnosacademy.com. Hit that hype button so we can continue to move these videos around, share this stuff with your friends, your family members, and uh, yeah, listen to it over and over again because God works through his word. So, man, good to be back with you, bro. For sure, for sure. We back, baby. We back. Yes, sir. You know, aye, y'all. The study, boys. You the study, the study, the study.