Where is the True Church? Trent, Bryce, & the Augsburg Confession

What makes a church truly Christian? Is it ancient liturgy, beautiful architecture, viral influencers, or something deeper?

In this episode of The Study Boys, Lex Lutheran and FLAME discuss why the Augsburg Confession (1530) remains one of the most important documents for anyone asking where the true Church is found. As growing numbers of Gen Z—especially young men—return to Christianity, many are choosing churches based on aesthetics, tradition, or online personalities. But are those the right criteria?

Together, we explore the historical circumstances surrounding the Reformation, the witness of the conservative Reformers, and why the marks of the Church are found not in style or "vibes," but in the pure preaching of the Gospel and the right administration of the Sacraments. We also explain why the doctrine of justification by faith alone is not merely one doctrine among many, but the article upon which the Church stands or falls.

Whether you're Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, or simply exploring Christianity, this conversation will challenge you to ask not, "Which church feels right?" but "Where has Christ promised to be for sinners?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Steady boys, we back. Let's go, let's go. Extra nose. Yeah. Extra dose academy nonprofit 501c3. We back.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Yeah. I'd like to thank everybody for their support, man. And, you know, let's just keep it going, man.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Thank you, thank you, thank you. This was a major move for us. We've been grinding for years. So everybody that's been tapped in since the beginning, thank you. Uh, as you all know, we did a conference a couple of years ago, the 2KR conference, the two kinds of righteousness. And shout out to Dr. Leopoldo Sanchez, who is a professor at Concordia Seminary, who graced us with his presence. Pastor Delwin Campbell, shout out to you, my brother. Um Lex. We just had a beautiful time, just teaching, QA session, the like. Then we did Extra Notes Fest, which was a music festival in St. Louis. So that was amazing. It was probably 300 people, the majority of whom were not even, you know, from the confessional world, and they were being introduced to our tradition. And not only that, they just had a great time all under the umbrella of Extra Notes Academy. So, man, to do all of that and really out of pocket, just out of out of the love for serving neighbor, um, but wanting to continue it, we say, man, let's see if we can get the body of Christ to rally behind us so that we can continue to do that and some, um, not to mention the courses that we already have available. So we've been hitting the ground running, man, for years now. And uh, so this is big for us to go to this next stage, bro, for sure, for sure. And more to come. I mean, more to come. More to come. More to come. And with that being said, I think it's interesting to consider tonight's discussion, which is young men, young men uniquely are returning to Christianity, either for you know, a host of reasons, or many are coming to Christianity for the first time. Again, mostly young men from the Gen Z generation. And I think that's a very interesting phenomenon. Not to say that young women aren't coming as well. That's a beautiful thing, both are, but this is just an interesting time, man. I think it says a lot. It's a lot that we could talk about in regards to it. But just hearing that stat, hearing that statistic, well, how does that land on your ears, bro? What comes to mind when you think about that, that reality?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Nah, I was just thinking when you said that there's this new uh Asian female lady out there who's doing uh apologetics. That's killing us. I was I was gonna try to find her name, you know what I'm saying? But nah, um, I love it. I think that it's just the youth in general. I think that I think the highlights on the youth, but I think it's people in general, to be honest with you. I think they're they're tired of the uh uh the rock concert. Nothing wrong with rock concerts or RB concerts. There's nothing wrong with concerts. I like going to concerts myself. But the uh the play on emotions and more so, I don't use best construct, rather than going for the vibe or the feelings, they're more so again to the aspect of what's actually being taught. What is actually, is this what Christianity is about? Rather than just, oh man, I felt that vibe, man. Woo, the the music, the songs, which are beautiful things. But if you're talking about that, where is the word of sacrament? Where are other things about Christ for you in a sense? I think people are getting away from that and starting to come back to it. And we're seeing a lot with the highlight being on Gen Z and people of that area, but I think it's happening. I mean, just for people we talk to. Some people who are older, some people who are younger. It's a wide spectrum, but Gen Z by mass is who the focus is on that we see coming across and being out there. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

It is, man. And um, you know, I heard a uh a statistic from Brian, um, our dear brother from On the Line. He was saying for the first time now, there are more Gen Zers in in church than baby boomers, which is like insane that the younger generations are showing up like that. Um, so obviously we pray for the baby boomers. I know life can be rough.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

I'm thinking that too. I want to say that like, hey man, just undefeated except for one person. He got that one L. You know.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Hey, uh man, I know life can be rough. So as you live this mug longer and longer, I can, I'm sure it presses on your faith. And and so, you know, obviously we're praying for everybody, right? But but I am happy to hear that people are exploring Christianity. And you know what? I think it's interesting too, though, that one of the things that you realize is that people want structure. They want some, they want to know what is the way right now. People are people are searching for structure, they're searching for the way. And they think they put their finger on the pulse of something, which is maybe it's Christianity, maybe the Bible has something to say, maybe the thing called religion that we wrote off. And it's interesting too because a lot of Gen Zers grew up really quickly, bro. I know a lot of Gen Zers who have, man, they have got off into a lot of vices and made a lot of difficult and and and bad decisions and at an early age are pretty traumatized. So, so they've, it reminds me, what is it? Um, Proverbs 13 says that the way of the wicked is hard. The way of the treacherous is hard. So I think a lot of people are realizing that, like, man, this is this doesn't yield the kind of results that they promised. They told me, come taste this, come try this, come hang out here. It's liberty, it's freedom, it's fun. And they went and they went hard and they did it, and they found that it didn't deliver on those false promises, man.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

So And they also saw other people fall at it. Sometimes it's not them. Sometimes it's people they care about dearly, in a sense. But one thing on that topic of them turning to something that's more of a solid foundation, because that's what the faith is, is that you can't go into it blindly. Meaning that, like, yes, you want to find the true path and this, but there's a lot of false gospels out there. Or gospels that, um, as I said before, they turn across into a ladder. Where now it's do more work harder rather than it's finished. And we call that law gospel. Without having that correct balance or that correct understanding, it can set people up for something. So in the current sentiment, you'll see a lot of people, like they'll, okay, I want to look in Christianity. And they'll just, oh, well, I know I'm not supposed to go arome, they're bad, but why? Why are they bad? And then they'll go talk to them rather than engage in the history. Because actually, the day we're recording this is uh the anniversary of the Augsburg Confession. Now, that's actually one of our confessions, you know, that we hold, but it wasn't written like for us. It was written for the church, the global universal church. Dare I say the Catholic Church. You know, Catholic means universal. So the universal faith. It was written for that to point people back to the historic faith minus the errors that were pointed out. You know, but instead of engaging what the issue was of why are there these issues, they're just looking for anything and not really um trying to find out, like, okay, just because you say you're the oldest, that doesn't mean that's true. If you get what I'm saying, in a sense, it's kind of like if the there's kids today in certain neighborhoods that are having issues with someone in another neighborhood, they have no idea why. They have no idea why. But guess what? If you want to know why, if you go ask the other side, all you're gonna hear is their side of the story. You have to be able to discern and look and see that, okay, scripture says this. You're saying this also, the other side is saying this and be able to discern. I say all that to say is while people are hunting and looking, why don't you also consider, okay, there was a big split that happened. Why did this happen? Is that resolved? Is that okay for me to forego in a sense? Christianity is true, don't get me wrong. I think God for any Christian, no matter what tradition it is. But we have we do have to care about how God is presented and stuff that's going on so you're not being pointed in the wrong directions. Because you'll talk to a Mormon and their church is called Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So if all you're doing is following a name, you're like, yo, we're good. We're both talking about Jesus. You know, so I think that's very important that, you know, people know where to look and see the issues because there's a lot of young influencers out here, um, like the guy, I think Bryce Crawford, we talked about him before. Yeah. Interviewing huge names, huge names, you know. Um, he he interviewed Kenneth Copeland. Hey, but he also interviewed other people, also. Uh, we have some clips where he's interviewing one of the top head hunters for the Roman Catholic Church, uh, goddamn Trent Horn. And dude's brilliant. The way he sets it up comes across, but then you'll notice he says various things. And if you're not aware of the history or of the actual issues, it's easy to be sidetracked and realize that, yo, that's kind of a dangerous path.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah. Yeah. And nah, before we get into that clip, man, so uh, what I think I'm hearing you saying is people are coming to Christianity. They're being drawn to Roman Catholicism for one reason or another without being aware of what the issues are, what things to consider. And then you bring up the Augsburg Confession because they rightly pointed out a major problem that all Christians need to be aware of. It's where do you center Christ? Where do you center the forgiveness of sins? If you do not have those things centered, prioritized properly, then you will get lost in a works-based, law-keeping, law-slinging expression of Christianity, which will crush your conscience and lead you to looking within, and it's going to be lead you to a hopeless road, or you'll look within and have false pride and false security as if you're actually killing it and meeting God's standard when you're really not. So both things are wrong. But the Augsburg Confession, June 25, 1530, was this effort to serve the church, to remind the church, to call the church back to centering herself on Jesus and the forgiveness of sins delivered through word and sacrament. And if you're not aware of that, you are vulnerable. And that's what you'll hear with this sort of open-minded discussion between Bryce and Trent Horn. That's I I agree, bro. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

One thing I will say is it's not just a Roman Catholic thing in 2026. So don't make it seem like, not you, but I want people to take it as we're just going after Rome. We're not going after nobody. But in this context, this is a great, especially on the anniversary of Augsburg, because this document we're talking about or we're referencing right now was actually submitted to them. So they had the chance to read what the confessions were, the Augsburg Confession, and reply. And then we replied. And a lot of stuff, if you look at it, we agree on baptism, think uh who God is, the Trinity. But there's also key parts in there like justification. Like that, things like that, that those nuances aren't something that you could just say, uh, y'all just disagree over organ versus piano. It's not it's not nothing trivial. That's why you have to look at and do your research. But we could jump into these clips.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Let's get into that, man. So then is the is the perspective do you think that Protestants are going to hell because they're not Catholic?

SPEAKER_02 12:38

I like I said, I would say that is parallel to the question, will non-Christians go to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? And the answer is it depends.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Well, I I but I guess my question though is like, where is the standard then, right? Because you made a point earlier about salvation, right? Where I would agree, like the scriptures say even the demons believe. Yeah. So I was I was just talking to a mentor of mine last night. Just because someone fills out a connect card at church does not mean that they're going to heaven. I don't know if they have sincere faith. Because someone asked me a couple weeks ago, they said, How many salvations have you seen? I said, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Woo! A lot was said in a short space of time, bro. A lot was said. You know what is interesting too? Just hearing Trent compare Protestant, it's Protestantism, this wide spectrum of Christians. Pretty much every other Christian outside of Rome and the Orthodox, he likens them to non-Christians. Right. Let that sink in. That is how Rome sees the Protestants. Now, I don't know what rank or what authority Trent has to speak directly for Rome. So I will throw that caveat out there. I know they don't know.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

I don't know. I I that's kind of a caveat I don't think we should be throwing because he is their top-tier guy. Like he works for Catholic answers. He's actually with them. You know what I'm saying? Like he's not just some rogue. And the they do this a lot. Like when with John Eck, um, not to y'all nerdy, but historical, he's the guy who kind of went after Luther and got a lot of this kicked off in regards to the split in the church. When you bring up things like the Augsburg was was submitted to you guys the confession, they'll say, Well, the Pope didn't say it's the it's who the Pope sent. It's who this. You know what I'm saying? So I get what you're saying, though, in regards to that um holding his view as that.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

But right. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying, and and look, that's whatever his, whatever the case is, he is the face for Rome in many regards on social media. There's nowhere around that. Whatever his official position is that allows him to speak authoritatively, that's to be discovered. But the point here is, my goodness, this is a part of their apologetic. And that is that the Protestants are parallel with non-Christians when it comes to whether or not they will be in heaven. Let that sink in. Let that sink in. So, and and his whole punchline was it depends, which basically means if God sees some quality of goodness in both non-Christians apart from Christ and Protestants apart from being Roman Catholic, then yes, they can have access to heaven without Jesus Christ based on some measure of goodness within themselves. Brothers and sisters, that is a denial of the doctrine of justification by faith alone, through Christ alone. That is very plain and very easy to point out, bro. And that is sad. That is sad because it denies Paul's words. And Paul's words are the words of God, the Holy Spirit himself. He inspired Romans 1:16 through 17 that says, For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. The gospel is the power of God, the power of salvation for everyone who believes. So you cannot dismiss the gospel like that and say that there is another way based on not belief, aka trust in Jesus' finished work, but based upon some good quality of good deed or good moral disposition in your heart apart from trust in Jesus' finished work. Unacceptable, bro.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah, because when you really unpack it, when they when he says that about the Protestant, it's basically saying that is faith and cr is is faith and trust in Christ enough. Now he'll he'll go on to say things like, well, you should be a part of Christ's church. That will be their view, their answer of that, right? Faith in Christ is enough. I don't care what other adjective or what other things you want to add on to it, he's what our faith clings on to. You know? So he goes on and they they present this argument as if that's like a s um a good apologetic, as if scripture doesn't kind of speak to something like this in regards to I I I'll read the text right now that I have up here. This is Luke 9. John answered, Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he does not follow with us. Sounds quite similar. Sounds quite similar. We see Protestants praising your name, giving glory to you, representing the the one true God. And we're trying to say that they're not with us because they don't sit under the Pope. Let me continue the quote. But Jesus said to him, Do not stop him. For one who is not against us, or one who is not against you, is for you. Pretty much pointed him to the fact that just because they're not following James or Judas, he was a good guy then Judas, or one of these guys, doesn't mean that they're not rocking with the path, the way. So this whole notion of if you're not Roman Catholic, I have to view you as somebody that doesn't have faith in God, a heathen. It's totally foreign. It's totally abstract to scripture. And then this goes into the part I mentioned before about justification. How if you look at history, you could spot these issues beforehand. So in the confession that um Philip Melanchthon penned and that he had to present to the king of the time, or the prince, they called him pretty much. Um, and Rome was there and they reviewed it. This is what they say about justification. Article 4. Also, they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who by his death has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight. Romans 3, Romans 4 is the passages that one should look at. But these are the things we're talking about. For justification is all on Christ's shoulders. He's the one who took it upon his shoulders, accomplished it, died, rose, defeated sin for you.

unknown 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

To add something to that saying, well, I know you trust in that. I know you, I mean, even even uh Bryce, I think his name was, was saying, you know, just because you fill out other things doesn't mean you're a Christian. I agree with that. But the follow-up point to that is is the trust in Christ is what makes you a Christian. Yes. You don't go with I'm I want do I judge your faith sincerely? Which is basically, he didn't say this, but it's kind of hinting at, what are you doing? What are your works? What are this? No, it should be I can't, I don't know your heart. I don't sit on the throne of judgment. That's not my place. Christ says, No, don't go in the field. You can't tell the wheat from the shafts. You'll be pulling up both of them, which I think purposely uh the lot of Catholics are doing with these type of answers, and other traditions also. But he tells us not to do that. So that's why you can't judge someone's salvation in that regard. But if you do have faith in Christ, I can't say his promises are for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

And you know what's so interesting, bro? I love everything you're saying, bro. And it's it's interesting because Bryce picked up on what you're saying. So he's he heard what Trent said, and his question was, well then what's the standard? So his his knee-jerk reaction was was right. It was well then how do you get in? How how on what basis does God let you into his heaven? So he had a good reflex, but to your point, he he was put in a juxtaposition based on Trent's savvy, and he didn't know where to go.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So where did he go? He defaulted to works. His whole spiel was about, and yeah, he started to give us uh an example from a personal story. Somebody asked me, he said, How many souls have gotten saved? Or how many souls have you saved? And he like, what? Why are you asking me? What does that have to do with anything? It ain't just because you filled out a Card that you earn salvation because you filled out a card. Where Bryce went was salvation is based on sincerity. Salvation has to be some degree of sincerity. And look, it's not that sincerity is absent from the from the equation, but it's where you have it placed. So what Trent calls Bryce to do was to follow him. He led him, and Bryce followed him to sincerity being the punchline. And that's where Bryce landed on this is how you know. This is how you know, based on your sincerity. And that is not the Christian message. Again, not saying neither of those brothers aren't actually our brothers. That's not the point here. The point is both of their declaration falls short of the good news of Jesus Christ, that we are justified by faith apart from works. So we don't get into the weeds of judging what degree of sincerity a person has. We don't get into the in the weeds of, okay, the gospel seed was planted. Now let me dig it up and see if it's growth happening. Okay, then I'm gonna bury it again. Now it's been a couple of minutes. Let me dig it back up. Been a couple of weeks, let me dig the seed back up and see how it's doing. You won't see growth that way. You won't see growth. You're killing the seed when you laid that type of burden on the person to constantly be proving their sincerity. And that is dangerous. That is dangerous, bro.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

And then the aspect of works, aspect of works, and it's it's a and he even started off by I think with that clip where he said like the issue he has, like with uh Sole Fide or faith alone, is is the aspect of works and sincerity in a sense. You know? But if you go look at the actual arguments and positions that happen in history, the Augsburg Confession, you'll see no one was talking anti-good works. We were just saying that's not what saves you. That's not the deciding factor when it comes to that. Like another quote from the Augsburg we have here, actually the apology, uh, Augsburg Apology. The sum of preaching of the gospel is this to convict of sin, to offer for Christ's sake the forgiveness of sins and righteousness, the Holy Spirit and eternal life. And that as reborn people, we should do good works. So good works come, but it's a fruit of what Christ has done for you, not as proof or justification of oh, this is why. So no one's against good works, and that's kind of the straw man people put up for um faith alone.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

So, yeah, again, Jesus is missing from this equation. Repentance is contrition and faith. It's brokenness over sin and turning to Jesus who heals you, who forgives you, who gives you the motivation, the power to actually live good works in the world. It's not your sincerity over your brokenness. It's not your sincere effort that is the power. No, the power is the gospel, which is God speaking you free. The power is in God's word that is speaking life in you, that is actually enlivening you. And that is what both of these brothers missed while discussing how do you get into heaven. They defaulted to um, yeah, sincerity and some some measure of goodness in yourself. And that's I love the point you brought up. Is now that you're in Christ, now that you are trusting in him by faith alone, Jesus says, now bear fruit in keeping with repentance. So on this side, we have much to say about good works. On this side, we talk much about God's law and how it informs us, though it has lost its fangs, as our confessions say, meaning we don't live under the fear and threat of condemnation ongoingly, but the law instructs us. It informs us of what God's good design is, and it keeps us from doing things that are not according to God's law. We don't have to take a bunch of extra pilgrimages or do special rites and rituals that God did not tell us to do. So the law functions in that positive and negative way, and to the extent that it's um God's law, we're gonna freely encourage people to follow it and to go hard after it and to serve neighbor according to it. So we ain't shying away from that either. And you're right, I think that's the misconception. And because people are so hyper-afraid that the law will be forgotten, they fall off the horse on the other end and they demand that you have such Ivy League level morality to prove that you're a Christian. And that's just not the biblical standard. Christians are Christians because of Christ. Right. Hence the name. Period. Period. Period. So anyway, it's more that they discussed in this, in this, in this particular interview, man. Maybe we get into another clip and just see their train of thinking, man. This is interesting.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

And then, like I said, yes, we're talking about the issue of Rome right now, but just know that no matter where you go, you have to be able to understand what the gospel is. Christ is free love saving sinners. Because these pitfalls happen a lot. You know, and but to get the actual issue, I I definitely suggest people pick up an Augsburg Confession, the 1530 unalter, but just do Book of Concord. But it highlights these issues. It highlights these laser point issues because if you don't know the issue, like the example I mentioned earlier about somebody's neighborhoods getting along, if you go talk to someone on the other side saying, yo, why don't why don't we get along? And they they they they can tell you anything. You don't realize the real reason might be some tragedy that one of their friends did to somebody else or some some horrible thing that happened because you totally miss it. He made it sound like it's about X when it's really about Y. When you can actually go to the documents and see the actual stances that the church you're you're looking to has or you're considering has, and you can compare it to scripture and be discerning. Like there's a clip, matter of fact, that's probably a good clip we could go to now where he talks about how can I know what to believe if I can't go to the the church.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Yeah, let's get into that one. That's relevant. And someone might say, Well, the church is just the invisible bond between all true Christians. That's the church. But to me, I have a hard time with that because I say, Okay, well, can the church help me know what doctrines I'm supposed to believe? Like if that is what the church is, it's just everybody who's Christian, they make up the church. Well, I can't really ask them anything. Because they I mean they all disagree about really important things, like so as I was saying, like it makes it sound as if we don't know what it is that's essential to the faith without being Roman Catholic.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

And this goes into the aspect of what is your faith in? Like scriptures, God breathes. Now they would say, Well, tradition is holy also. No disagreement there. Tradition that does have a place. But scriptures, God breathe, and something shouldn't go against this, and that's what tells us what's essential. That's what tells us and reveals who Christ is. So to say that we wouldn't know unless we bow the knee to the papacy, as if scripture isn't sufficient, as if someone literally couldn't get a Bible and start reading and be like, man, I bro, this right here is really this is enough in the world. God's revealed enough. I think that's Romans 3 or 1, to where I know there's something, and this right here is the truth. This is the Holy Spirit now is working on you, revealing and giving you faith. As if that's not enough. As if without basically the Roman Catholic Church, all is for naught. And I think that that's a horrible dynamic to to point people in that direction as if now he's right that there are a lot of disagreements. There are a lot of disagreements. But let's not overplay it. There's a lot of agreement also when it comes to the Trinity, when it comes to Christ being sinless. There's agreement on the essentials we would say are agreed upon. Now when it comes to justification, which we would say is definitely an essential. The church has always agreed on that. They strayed from that. But that's always been the pillar. Is it's Christ who saves, it's faith in Christ that redeems. It's Christ who dies for our sins. Scripture tells us that, and that's more than enough for assurance and security.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, that's well said, bro. And it's interesting. Man, I got so much I want to say. So, one, I do thank God for the simplicity of his word. The clarity of his word that um, you know, we talk a lot about in this space is that there is this clarity, this simplicity to God's word that a person can read their Bibles and find the gospel. Or bet maybe better said, the gospel will find them. So I'm happy about that. When people are in the lowest of the lowest places in life and they find a Bible, they pick up the word, and they just start reading through the gospels, they read about Christ, and the Holy Spirit is present in his word, and he starts to move people, and they feel the conviction of sin. They feel and detect even beyond feelings that they are guilty before a creator. And then they they read about the sweetness of Jesus Himself and the forgiveness of sins, and God does a creative work in their hearts through his written word. So I thank God for that. I'm happy because what Trent is doing, and not only Trent, many traditions use this argument to say you need our particular camp to control this understanding, or else you don't have the true expression of Christianity. And it's a sneaky move because he's actually making a decent point. His point is decent in that it is beneficial to have the collective conscience of the church related to what Christianity is. It is healthy to know the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, the Athenation Creed, for the sake of understanding the way Christians throughout the ages have understood this Bible. Because anybody can pick it up and make up their own definitions. They can make up their own religion, hence the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christian scientists, and the list goes on. So he's making a decent point, which we would say amen to in one sense. So you do need the church in this, in a way that's that's necessary to help you understand what Christianity is. But but then they overstate it by demanding that Rome has that exclusive understanding. So I thank God that that's not true. I thank God that many people are with the Lord throughout the ages that were not from the Roman ilk. I thank the Lord that many today are brothers and sisters that are not of the Roman ilk. Amen. Hallelujah. So this is a sneaky thing. Here's my point. It is important when you're having this discussion, and that's why I'm glad we're talking about the Augsburg Confession, bro. Because when you exclude the Augsburg Confession and its dealings and the setting and the particular things that they were discussing, when you exclude it from the conversation, you are uniquely vulnerable. If you're asking these questions, now, if you're the average person out there, you're not thinking deeply about this. You're going to church, you believe justification by faith alone, and you're just trying to do good works in the world and trust Christ. This is fairly simple for people with that particular, you know, sort of, they exist in that skin where it's very simple. But for people like Bryce, who are actually asking questions and thinking deeply about this, it is important that you understand the dealings of the Augsburg Confession, the occasion, because what you're gonna get, you're gonna get a healthy dose of, yes, let's consider what the church has said about these things. And that's precisely what they were doing in the Augsburg Confession, is reaching back to see what the church fathers, what the early church had to say about justification by faith alone. And and the Augsburg Committee will say Rome has deviated. That's bad. And then with Augsburg in the conversation, while you're just while you're thinking about stuff like this for people like Bryce and others, you're also going to realize wait, we can't talk about Christianity in the healthiest way without the doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from works. And when you have that in the discussion, you will be safer and less vulnerable to this works-based thing that uh Trent is promoting. You will become less vulnerable to that. And that's why it was scary to see Bryce take a step in that direction, towards sincerity is how you know you're truly saved. So, yeah, all that to say, man, um, you have to consider why the Reformation popped off, why this was so impactful within the story of church history. What were those early conservative reformers fighting for? Why did it alter and change the direction of Christianity in the sweetest and most healthy way? So please don't exclude this part of the story because you will be left alone with those who reject justification by faith alone. And it's not like they're idiots, they're smart men and women. They're brilliant, they're they're skilled, they do good works in the world, they have a good reputation for standing for right values and rejecting evil. So it's not like you're gonna easily detect that what they're saying is wrong when they do so much good. So that's why our appeal is as you're working through these things, make sure you consider the Augsburg Confession and the apology of the Augsburg Confession, not so we can convert you to be on our team. That's not the priority. And that's we don't even consider that a win. Like, whoo, we it wasn't written for us.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

It wasn't written for us. When I say that, people, what I mean is is um As a click, as a club. Yeah, yeah. If a Pentecostal wrote something right now, he's writing it for Pentecostals. Now, you not being a Pentecostal, you might like it. And say, hey, that's some good stuff. Same goes for Methodists, same goes for Presbyterians, same goes for Lutherans, same goes for Catholics. This was before there was any Lutheranism type, official type thing. This is literally people who want to stay Catholic who are saying you guys are going too far, Roman Catholic, you guys have straight the path. It's almost an in-house argument. So it's not written for, yeah, we don't like them because of this. Yeah, yeah, take this. It wasn't written like that. It was written in a sense of this is what the historic faith is. This is what we've always believed. And notice how I'm saying we, because it's presented as we're all part of this faith. So when we say read the Oliver, no one's trying to convert nobody. Now, it would be nice though if you did hold the sacraments the correct way, came to the law. I mean, don't be wrong, don't get me started. But it wasn't written in that regard, so a person can read this and not feel like they're being um pushed to go in a direction. Now you might get drew in that direction when you start realizing the sweetness and comfort and stuff that's there, but it wasn't written with that in at the heart of it.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Exactly. It's so interesting too, bro. Just real quick, I'm just looking at the Augsburg Confession from the Evangelical Catholic app, shameless plug. But just real quick, bro, I'm article one is uh of God. So they're gonna be talking about the Trinity. They're gonna be saying, yeah, our faith is built on the reality of the triune God. Amen. This is all universal stuff. Original sin is the second article. So what they're gonna do is help you rightly understand that we are um born with this corruption on the inside of us, and we need to be saved from that corruption because our nature is fallen. We don't pursue God. And then as a result of that, um the temptations that we undergo, those things bring about actual sin and all of that. We're guilty of all of that, and we need we need a savior because of that. They're gonna talk about the um of the Son of God, so they're gonna get into the uniqueness of Christ. They're gonna get into justification by faith alone. They're gonna get into um, that's Article 4, Article 5 of the ministry. So who can preach the word? Who can administer the sacraments? Is it based on the priest and his power to bring about some change in the Eucharist? Does he have the power within himself, within his particular office, or is the power in the word, is the power in God's word? All of these things are important. Then they're gonna get into new obedience, good works. So we're not gonna shy away from having to do good works. Then they're gonna get into of the church. What is the church? Is the church just a pope and the and the cardinals and the priest and everybody else is just a part of what God is doing divinely through those special men? Or is the church the priesthood of all the saints in which we all have been made equal? No male, no female, no slave, nor free in Christ Jesus. These are the things we're going to be protecting. Then we're going to get into baptism, the Lord's Supper, where God delivers the once-for all justification that Jesus won through these physical means. So the list goes on. I can go pound for pound, but the point is when you don't have the voice of the Holy Spirit from his word, through his prophets and apostles, guarded by those men from the Augsburg meeting that they presented to Rome, you're missing a key, essential part of this consistent through line from the beginning. And as you're trying to find your way forward, you won't have that, that protection. For whatever reason, you may be resisting it, ducking it, dodging it, or maybe you're unaware for all the people that's coming in out of nowhere, and you're just attracted by the beauty and the aesthetic of Rome or the Orthodox or the Coptics, you're like, man, I love the architecture of the building. I love the vestments. I love the candles and the incense. I love the prayer beads and the rosary. I love the pilgrimage. And you're just enamored by the aesthetics, and you feel like I'm sick of the evangelical concert, coffee sipping, casual gathering, I want something extremely different. If that's all you're into, you're going to be let down relatively soon. Once you see that those things are empty, if the justification by faith alone, reality is not protected, if all these other doctrines that are written about in this particular confession are not protected, you'll find yourself with a crushed conscience or swollen with arrogance, leaning in on your own performance and morality. And both are just as dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

No, that's real. That's real. It makes me think of something me and you talk about how it's a different topic a little bit, but not really. How the Reformation, a lot of people point to, you know, older issues. With the papacy or various things, oh, sola scriptura. Hey, don't be wrong, I'm not opposing those things at all. But the real issue was this comfort of the conscience. It really was the aspect of Christ freely dying for you and rescuing you. And we're we're hinting about this in this conversation because those are the topics we're talking about are going around that. Christ freely dying for your sins, redeeming you, saving you. You can't add on to that and say, Oh, you believe that? But do you pray the rosary five times? But do you submit to the Pope? But there's no but about it. The comfort of conscience comes from Christ. Your faith, your trust is in Him. And there's nothing sweeter. There's nothing sweeter. When you are adding things to that, you start going down a slippery slope, no matter who it is, no matter if it is, I mean, there's people in the evangelical world that do have justification correct, right? So we don't want to make it sound like that, but a lot of people are leaving that looking for something else, and they're willing to forsake that comfort of conscience. Now, from the comfort of conscience, to prove that it's about Jesus' and his forgiveness of sins, we rely on scripture, which led to sola scriptura, which led to how how is it comforting? It's just faith in him. He's the one who took it. Then you have solely fide. And that's how things branched off and became the issues of the three solas. But we cannot act as if the main issue isn't comfort of the conscience and comfort of the soul based in Christ alone and allow these type of things to draw people away. Just because you have an issue with the heartstream manipulation of the American church and how things might be about more social issues than it's about Christ, how things are more about your moral improvement than it is forgiveness of sins. You're leaving for these reasons. Hey, I get it. But wherever you go, don't put the gospel on the side. Say, well, whatever it is, as long as it addresses these other issues I have, I'm good with. I'm good with that. Um the stained glass is great. Now, don't be wrong, my church has some great stained glass, you know. But I wouldn't be there if it wasn't Christ about Christ. So if you're leaving because it's some evangelical coffee thing, or if it's because it's some some woke thing, or whatever you're leaving your church from, don't act as if when you leave from there that you can just put the gospel on the side and just act like, oh, now I like these incense, or now I like, I like the way everybody dresses. They take reverence seriously. Okay, but is the gospel proclaimed? Is this about Christ and his freely forgiveness of sins for you? Is it about that? If it's not, fam, you you you you have to realize the importance of that. That's what it's about.

unknown 47:06

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Because everything else is empty. Everything else, you can have all of that stuff, all the aesthetic, all the preserved tradition from hundreds and hundreds of years ago. You could be lost in, wow, look how much they preserved. Wow, they got relics from the bones of Saint So-and-so, Saint So-and-so. Wow, they got the the t-shirt that so-and-so wore in this particular century. Oh my gosh. Look at those sandals.

SPEAKER_05 47:36

Ooh!

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Second century. Right. And you can be lost in that. And I get it. Human beings, we love beauty. We love, we're wired to. God is beautiful. Um, his creation is beautiful. So that is in the DNA makeup of what it means to be a human. We're drawn to beauty. We want to stare at it. We want to gaze upon it. We don't want to break that gaze because it's intoxicating. We get it. But if that's all that there is, and there's no forgiveness of sins based upon Christ alone, all you have is a bunch of caveats for, well, you know, if you're sincere enough or if you trent, I mean, my goodness, he's talking about letting every every situation um, he has this very loose and liberal understanding of how to approach a holy God and to be made right in his sight, whether you're Islamic, non-Christian, Protestant, for him, as long as you did the best you could with what was revealed, he says. As long as whatever understanding, if you're born in some remote place in the world and you've never heard of Christ, as long as you worship that tree with sincerity and you were very devout to come back to that same tree and bow down when you stand before God, God's gonna say, you know what? You didn't, you didn't trust in Christ, but man, you worship that tree with a quality of sincerity that I can't even front on. Get on in here, son. Get on in here, daughter. That's his message.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Yeah, but it's even worse than that, though. I'll gonna say not to cut you off. It's it's just that, but it's also, but if you didn't hear a Christ and you did place your faith in him, I'm gonna view that tree hugger with more love and compassion and mercy and grace than I am you because you didn't submit to the Roman church.

unknown 49:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Like that's crazy. Like, it makes you wonder. So where is this balance? Where is because you're saying a guy who doesn't know Christ, right? Is gonna be viewed in a higher light than people who worship the correct one true God per their own confession they hold to per historic Christianity. But because he didn't submit to the Pope, you're saying he's on equal footing with somebody who even denies Christ. So the person who worships God is on equal footing as somebody who's an unbeliever, and a person who doesn't know anything is on higher standing than that, it's a that's crazy work. It's crazy work. I don't, I don't, I don't see how that's any comfort or or e it's even biblical. Like I don't I don't understand that. Like it's just we have to keep the main thing, the main thing, and then now we're branching off into a solo scriptura type topic. You know what I'm saying? Like, nah, that's real. It's 100% against what scripture reveals, and they'll say tradition. And as you said before, he's there's a lot of things that when we we watch his video and you hear Catholics talk that we're like, man, that's it got got a point. Got a point. But you there's certain questions on the test you can't miss. Like you can get 99 out of 100 correct, but there's one called Christ and justification that you get wrong. We have an issue. We have an issue. And when that goes against scripture, what you're saying and what you're mentioning, kind of the scripture I read earlier, how they're like, hey, we told him to stop casting out demons in your name, basically acknowledging who Christ is, having the Holy Spirit, because they're casting out demons. Like Jesus said, demons ain't gonna cast out demons. That's, you know, that's defeating their self. So by correct exegesis, we can say, yo, these people right here are truly acknowledging who Christ is and going about this. But because they're not following Andrew or one of them, they're like, stop, stop, hold on, stop. You're not with us. You're not with us. And Christ is like, yo, hold up, man. Hold up. That's not the right way to go about this. This is about Christ. Not your gang, not, you know, how big your church is, not how great your band is, not how dope your vestments are. This is about Christ.

unknown 52:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Romans 5, 1, bro. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That's how we have peace with God. You mean it didn't say and Pope after that?

unknown 52:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

My bad. I thought you were gonna keep going, is gonna say they change the name after every every couple of 20 years, they put someone else in Christ and Pope Leo or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Come on, bro, exactly. So you mean to tell me and him and everybody else that unless I also submit to a man who says that Jesus' work isn't finished and complete, that you have to purge after death in this place called purgatory, where you are purged of sin that was still in your life after you died. And who long, who knows how long you'll be there? And unless you embrace that doctrine, then you cannot receive the forgiveness of sins and entrance into heaven. You have to go to Mass where the priest, um, he he has the authority to represent Christ on the altar as a non-bloody sacrifice, and the the Eucharist isn't for the forgiveness of sins, it's an offering from us to God that that we give to him, that it becomes more like a work than actually the grace that Jesus promises in Matthew 26, 26, and following. You mean I have to embrace all those things that we contribute to prove our sincerity, which actually goes against Romans 5:1, a text I just read. I have to do that, so I have to follow you in your way over against the scripture. No, no, we can't do that. We can't stand for that. And and and let me just read how this is real short, how they describe the church in um Article 7 of the Augsburg Confession. It says, also they teach that one holy church is to continue forever. The church is the congregation of saints in which the gospel is rightly taught and the sacraments are rightly administered. And to the true unity of the church, it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies instituted by men should be everywhere alike. As Paul says, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Ephesians 5, 6. Uh, yeah, Ephesians 4, 5 and 6. Beautiful. Beautiful description of the church. That's what the church is. It is not this expression of Christianity that has added so many layers of human tradition and rites and ceremonies instituted by men, and it's demanded upon you to follow them for salvation. No, that is not what the church is. The church, I love how simply they describe this because in it there is this freedom to have different types of cultural expression, but we must rally together around the right understanding of the gospel, which includes the Trinity, because Jesus says to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, baptism is certainly the gospel, so it has to be done in the name of the singular name, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So that's covered. So unless the gospel is, is the gospel must be articulated rightly, and the sacraments must be articulated rightly, that is what the true church is. And it's for saints that gather um all over the world and that and this one holy church that continues forever. So this is not the definition that Trent gave of the church, which sent Bryce into a panic. This is the biblical, this is the biblical definition of what the church is. And uh so, yeah, so we commend again this confession to y'all. Um, so send send this video to everybody that you know that are just sort of freely, haphazardly floating into certain traditions because the aesthetic is fire, and it's the it's the wave right now to just run to the extreme side of things. You want to get way away from where you came from, and you want to go as far as you can so you just find the most traditional thing out there, be be be aware. That's dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Go from one ditch to the other ditch. You know, it's like there's a reason why things happen in history. They're sad. Don't be wrong. I did, I do wish that the church didn't um have to go through what it went through, you know, in 1517. But it did. So before you run to the other ditch, you need to find out what's really over there and what's going on. Because I agree, a lot of a lot of y'all should leave the ditch you're in. I'll be 100 honest with you. A lot of y'all churches is trash. Yeah. You know, I word it that way. But don't go from this trash heap to that trash heap. And I don't mean to just disparage both sides like that, you know, but what I'm saying is find out when you're leaving there, you can be leaving for just right and holy reasons. But find out what the real issue is over there. And the issue, the document we're pointing to is directly about those real issues. It's directly written in regards to those issues to a point where they even had a chance to rebuttal it. You can see where they agree, where they disagree in the rebuttal, and then after that, you can read the apology, which goes and says, Well, yo, this is this is where we stand. Like, this is why scripture-wise and historic-wise, we can't budge on the gospel. If you don't realize these things, you'll go thinking that we're fighting over prayering to praying to the saints. Like you're told on the line in the sand of of why you won't talk to Rome because you guys pray to the saints. Now, am I saying you should pray to the saints? No. Am I saying you shouldn't? I'm not saying that either. What I am saying is that's not the issue at hand. Those aesthetics that you hear about and you people casually yell out and talk about is not the main issue. The main issue is way more severe and really goes to the crux of who Christ is and what he accomplished. So that's good.

unknown 59:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

No, that's great. That's great, bro. I I think in closing, you know, the the reality is in this life, you're going to be dealing with right, we're Christians, so you're going to be dealing with the reality that we are both sinners and saints at the same time. And the the world, the flesh, and the devil will be putting pressure on you that will test and shake your faith, your trust in Christ. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

I'm going to say one thing before you close out. The devil doesn't care if you're a good person. The devil doesn't care how nice the band is at your church or the or the choir or how lit you guys are. He cares, all he cares about is you not having your faith in Christ. You know what I'm saying? So it's all these add-on things and this, oh, the aesthetics, they're beautiful. It's about faith in Christ. So don't think that all these works and all these other things is going to be what adds up to the mountain because as Roman, I believe it's four or five, where it talks about your wages, that's not what this is about. You know, you'll get you'll get your wage. This is about the free gift, which comes through salvation in Christ. But keep going, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Nah, yeah, that's exactly, bro. It's like, and because of that reality, that you have um God's enemy, Satan and his imps, his demons. You have the flesh, right? Just the natural drive in you that that pushes you away from trusting Christ and is pushing you towards autonomy, living for yourself, doing what you want to do, whatever feels right, tastes right, sounds right, seems right. And then you just have the world, the world system, the way of thinking, a way of doing things that says, huh, try this. You don't have to, this, you don't have to wait for God's definition of this thing or that thing. Just we've already determined that this is cool, that this is okay, that this is acceptable. And you look at it and you say, man, I don't see lightning striking from heaven when they over there doing that thing that they told me not to do in church. Maybe it is okay to think that way. Maybe it is okay to try that. You have all of these forces pushing and pulling and dragging you. So as you're as you're considering this reality, I hope that you would remember that only Christ can rescue you from such vicious attacks. Only Jesus can comfort the conscience as you're struggling along the way and you're realizing how hard this actually is when you're falling short and you're being tempted and you keep giving in to the same sin over and over again, and you wonder, is there forgiveness for me? Is God sick of me? Can He handle real sinners like myself? When you're actually in the throes of real life, the aesthetic ain't gonna be the thing that's gonna save you. The vibes ain't gonna be the thing that's gonna save you, either on one extreme end where it's a high-intense praise and worship, decree and clear prophecy, tongue, speaking experience, or the other extreme, where it's a bunch of pilgrimages and man-made rites and rituals promising you to give you a little boost along the way in more and more doses if you keep up with your rites and rituals unto the Pope and Jesus. Both of those extremes will fail you. So that's why we're saying make sure you know what the main thing is, and that is that we're sinners and saints, and we need Jesus. We need the forgiveness of sins, we need law and gospel. Ultimately, it's Christ who delivers that through his word by his preachers, right? Who make sure that we're hearing his word and make sure that those sacraments are administered according to the scriptures, so God can do his work through his word Sunday after Sunday. He can do his work through the mutual consolation of the saints every time y'all meet and link up and talk about the scriptures and mutually encourage one another so he can do his work through his means, confession and absolution, where you can get that stuff off your chest and hear a man or woman look you in your eyes and let you know you are forgiven for the sake of Christ. That's the extent, and when I say a woman, I'm not meaning the pastor for people that hear things that way. I'm meaning just the priesthood of all believers. But just to be clear on that, um, but the point is you need this reality, this truth. Because that's what it's gonna take to that day where you're finally clothed in those baptismal robes for all eternity when Christ comes back or you perish. So take this thing serious. Don't just run to where the wave is is leading because it's a lot at stake. And and uh God has given us what we need to survive in this world. You feel me? Not only to survive, but to thrive based on his power, man. So anyway, any final thoughts, bro?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

I can think of his man. When all said and done, I just fall on that Luke 18, verse 13. God be merciful to me, a sinner. That's all I got. That's all I got. Like I all this, uh all this, am I with am I am I worshiping? I mean, am I following the Pope? Am I doing this correctly? Am I doing this correctly? God be merciful to me, a sinner, bro. I'm just I'm just laying at his feet, clinging to that truth, that faith, that he died for my sins and rose and redeemed me. That's it. That's all I got, man. That's justification by faith alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Amen. That's the word, bro. That is the word. So, man, it's been good. Um, so make sure y'all check out extranoseacademy.com. You'll see the things that we got going on there. If you're if you love what you're receiving here, you want to see more like it, please support, please donate. You can go to the website and do so. Um, we appreciate the love and support. We want to continue to do things like podcasting and other efforts to make sure people are hearing the pure gospel in creative ways. So stay tapped in for this video. Hit that hype button. Make sure y'all hit that hype button so the algorithm gets stimulated and moves this video around so people can hear about the comfort of conscience that Jesus delivers through his word and sacrament. That's it, man. It's been real. The study boys, you already know you. Yeah.